Bugsdad Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 A buddy of mine told me you guys were asking about this. The problem isn't with the diameter of the stock 4L65E output shaft. The 4L60/4L60E/4L65E output shaft must be drilled full of holes to provide lubrication to the rear geartrain of the transmission. The 4L80E shaft does not have to do double duty. It's very short and doesn't have the hole drilled down the center and holes drilled all the way down the side to weaken it. Every broken 4L60 shaft I've seen has been at the tip where the holes start or at the base where the hole stops and the splines for the ring gear are. The cracks will start at a hole and travel to an adjacent hole. 4L80E output shaft has a nice big diameter base with the teeth on the outside of it. Much better design. There is a sy running 9s with a 4L80E output shaft that's been machined. Hasn't broken it yet. If anyone lives in the dayton/cincinnati ohio area and has their's torn down and doesn't mind me doing some fitment on it, I'll be more than happy to see if what I've done will work or work with a slightly different design. One last thing for anyone trying to do this. Do NOT anneal the 4L80E shaft before machining it. It' will lose 40% of it's strength if you anneal it, machine it and then reharden it. Bad idea. Must be machined in it's hardened state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Hey you'd be the man if you were able to come up with a way to adapt the nvg 149 t-case to the 4l80e trans. and if you have experience with the 4l80e trans I think all you would need is the t-case i'd locate one and bring it to you if I were in the area! Anyone in his area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsdad Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Did the NV149 come on the silverado SS? If the silverado SS has a 27 spline output shaft(4L60,60E,65E), this shaft will work. Just need to see the transfer case adapator the NV149 uses to hold the transmission and transfer case together. You must keep your stock transfer case adaptor to keep geometry intact. If not, your front prop could hit the floor or hang down too low. I read through the thread some more and I saw where guys were talking about make a new input shaft for the transfer case....pull out the wallet. When I was shopping around for having a rear planetary made for the 4L60/65 series transmission, the cutting of "inside" splines is VERY expensive. It takes approx 2 hours on the machine that cuts the female splines to cut them into a rear planetary. What you guys are wanting to do isn't hard. It just takes some measuring to get the adaptor plate correct and the shaft length right. I'll be more than happy to measure this up for anyone around my neck of the woods that got their's apart. I'm not sure why GM didn't just do a 4L80E in your trucks in the first place. With as much as your truck weigh and the power potential your engine's can make, it would've made much more sense. For you guys doing it, Raybestos makes blue clutches for the overrun and the overdrive stacks. Billet input shafts, better sprag, etc. In 1999 GM increased the thickness of all the planetaries by 10% and made the band wider. Input shaft has a couple improvements. The lube hole down the center shaft was eliminated as well as many other improvements. If anyone is wanting to do this, get a 1997 or newer (preferably 1999 or newer) and get it built with better clutches and components. Sonnax has a better clutch hub and wider bushings as well. If you just get a junkyard 4L80E from 1991 and throw it in there, your no better off than you were. If your gonna go through this much trouble, get a good 4L80E. Chuck at FLP is awsome. If you have any question about what to use, just ask him to set you up one. He knows what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Yes as long as a cut down output shaft would be stronger than the 4l65e stock output shaft since it doesn't have the holes drilled in it I see no reason why that wouldn't work just need someone to have you look at their truck to get a bolt up adapter made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsdad Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 There's a guy running 9's with a resplined shaft. He drives a couple hundred miles to the track. Races. Drives back home. He has over 60 passes. Robert "MrSyclone". http://www.syclone.org He recently pulled it apart to check everything over. Everything looked like new. He just put it all back in. Gave me a lot of faith in the resplining process. Not trying to "sell" it. It just takes time to understand it. Turbo 350's have the same spline as the 4L60series. If you've heard of the powerglides, you know what kind of power they can take. Same spline as the one you've already got. It's just shorter and doesn't have lube holes drilled all over it. I bet GM at some point will change over to the 4L80E in your trucks like they did the Hummer. If enough warranty stuff comes in, it'll make financial sense to go that route. Your input shafts are the same way. Shafts either twist apart the aluminum drum or break down at the bottom where the 4 lube holes are drilled. The 3-4, overrun, and forward lubes holes are drilled through with check balls driven into the hole to block it and the rear lube hole is open of course. By the time all of those lube holes are drilled in it, it doesn't leave much material to take any abuse. They tried to compensate by making the base slightly bigger but it still isn't enough. I've seen a lot of broken 4L60's. Here's a shot I found of the 4L60/e/65 output shaft: See all the holes that are drilled in it? Notice how it broke from one hole to the next? It goes UP to the sprag end. It's not just between the two holes at the journal. It goes all the way up. But it does NOT go down past the splines. Those splines just below the crack is where the rear ring gear engages the shaft. There down does just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Wow thats interesting so what would a piece like this run? $$ and does the 4l60 and the 4l80 have the same bolt pattern at the back of the trans to allow you to bolt the t-case up or would the adapter from a 4x4 4l80 work for bolting it up assuming the t-case has the same pattern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsdad Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 I've seen some pics of the back of the late 4L60E/65 and the bolt pattern looks like this: An extension housing for a 4L80E looks like this(I've got a pic of the back of my 4L80E somewhere): It may not even need an adaptor plate but the length needs to be set up correctly. Some trucks with the 4L60E continue to use the 4 bolt pattern of old so someone would have to check their truck. You do NOT want to use the adaptor off of a 4L80E. You want to use YOUR adaptor that came on the SS. Remember the geometry deal. It's very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 Got it! So your saying that if we had the shaft turned down and it was the correct length this is all we should need? other than moving the trans mount back which is easy enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsdad Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I've got a 4l80E sitting on my worktable. If you can get me a transmission to tranfercase adaptor from the SS, I'll see if it's possible to mount on the back of the 4L80E even with some modification. Then I can see how long the shaft needs to be and that's it. On the syty, the crossmemeber had to be moved back 3 1/4" (that's with the adaptor plate and the transmission to transfercase adaptor). There is a wiring harness already made that you can plug into your existing harness to run the 4L80E. I also need to know how far the output shaft sticks out past the mounting surface of the transfer case adaptor on the stock SS. On the syty AWD setup, it was approx 5/8". Zippy proably has the wiring to a science for whatever calibration issues are needed for the 4L60E to the 4L80E swap. PM me if you find an SS adaptor for fitment and I'll get my address to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 will see what I can find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 i can get the wiring chart needed if someone wants to make this work. i haven't seen any of the SS's yet putting down too much power for the 4L65E. it does appear a handfull will be reaching that soon though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I will find out monday if I am able to get the NVG 149 t-case input shaft for the 4l80e swap! I spoke with a guy today who is currently doing this exact swap in an SS single turbo setup making 1000hp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 i still have that 65E sitting there at work....measuring tomorrow...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmalibuss Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTex Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Since the 80E is longer than the 65E, you'd either need to alter your driveshaft lengths or get an adapter that is roughly 4" shorter so the transfer case is physically located in the same spot. If there is a shorter adapter that would work, the output shaft would need to be shorter by the same amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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