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The only prices that I've seen so far ar a few setups from Texas speed. I'm going to be calling Richard at wcch sometime soon to get some prices and opinions from him. I figure if I do end up buying the whole motor and using just what I need I'll put my 317 heads and intake manifold on the motor and sell it as a whole. I'd probably be able to get a decent hunk of my money back out of it from someone looking for a complete 6.0.

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The only prices that I've seen so far ar a few setups from Texas speed. I'm going to be calling Richard at wcch sometime soon to get some prices and opinions from him. I figure if I do end up buying the whole motor and using just what I need I'll put my 317 heads and intake manifold on the motor and sell it as a whole. I'd probably be able to get a decent hunk of my money back out of it from someone looking for a complete 6.0.

 

 

if you are open to ported heads, see how much it would be to port a set if you supply the castings vs if they use brand new gm castings. Also if you use a head porter they can supply bare castings for you and just put in the ls3 valves and what ever springs you want. That way you get a ported set of heads with better valves and springs and you don't have to throw away the stock springs and valves you just paid for on a used set.

 

If your looking into that route, don't forget TEA, they are my first choice in heads every time, http://www.totalengineairflow.com/products/gmhead/gml92/.

 

when your comparing heads and flow numbers, make sure the test bore size is the same, the exhaust test was the same and then look at what valve size each porter used. A lot of times guys will put larger valves in the heads to get flow numbers up on a bad port job. So if you see a head flowing 5 cfm more with a larger valve......i'd go with the smaller valve.

Edited by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)
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If you are dead-set on using a GM square-port head (L92 type) then remember the intake manifold is a definite issue; the truck square-port intakes fall down after 5000-rpm, and the car (Vette LS3) intakes put the throttle-body physically in the way of the front engine accessories. So, the stock GM truck intake will not give the performance you want; the car intake will not fit without changing water pump & front accessories. So I would consider an aftermarket intake manifold, one not mentioned so far is the Edelbrock tunnel ram (great throttle response).

 

This is not a cheap proposition - you need to budget for:

1. Heads, rocker-arms

2. L92-specific cam

3. Hardened pushrods (duh!)

4. Intake manifold, or swap to car accessory drive

5. 92-mm throttle body and adapter harness

6. Injectors

7. PCM Tune

.

.

.

 

So what I am saying is, there is no such thing as a "truck L92 head swap" - in reality it is actually a "truck entire top of the motor swap".

 

Mr. P. :)

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So would you guys recommend going with a set of aftermarket heads with rectangle ports and an aftermarket intake manifold, such as the tunnel ram like steve suggested, or sticking to cathedral port heads and keep my stock intake manifold?

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i would lean on the cathedral port heads for a stock cubed motor. For a 408 i would start looking into the ls3 heads but theres just so many offerings of the cathedral ports that i'm not sure i would use them at all. But either way you look, some one has a set up of each that is working great.

 

I know its expensive, but does FAST make a square port LSXRt manifold. If they do you could use the long runner fast intake on the ls3 heads and avoid all the issues Steve said. Joe has the LSXRt on his truck and it looks killer, gives you the torque of the long runner, should produce with in 5 hp of the car intake(unported) and he even used stock fuel lines on it with a stock fuel reg. I'm not sure what year the fuel lines are off of, but it works and looks pretty good to.

 

After seeing the heat soak of an aluminum intake vs a composite intake, i would never put an AL one on again. I would spend the extra cash on a FAST truck intake or do the car swap out.

Edited by shadowsniper3006 (see edit history)
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If you plan on staying with cathedral port heads, figure it will cost you $1365 per pair to have WCCH machine a set of 317's for you. It includes......cleaning/porting/polishing/machining and reassembling with new stainless steel valves and a dual spring kit with titanium retainers........food for thought, Richard quoted me that price last year......

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back to the OP. IF IF IF...what are your goals? whats your budget?

 

goals: times? drivability? budget?

 

So if I am chasing a time, then I know certain things must happen

if I am worried about drivability then there is a line that you can see in the parts (ported all out vs out of the box)

if I am worried about budget then I will look at all the costs and find the cheapest way.

 

Seems like you are getting your goals set by the good deal of then engine...but remember (like steve said) there are alot of misc parts puting together a Heads/Camed Gen III.5 :)

I cannot say how many times I have seen supercharger set-ups for sale that are cheaper than my Gen IV top end...so it all about what you want out of your truck.

 

follow the air flow...intake to exhaust and you will see where you can get improvements over stock:

 

larger throttle body

 

Different runner lengths (intake)

 

better head design/intake value

 

Piston (compression)

 

Exhaust value

 

Exhaust port

 

Exhaust manifolds/headers

 

 

 

and the kicker...you'll need to match the stall to your goals, and once thats picked its really hard to go from NA to FI (ask me how I know)

 

you might also think about selling the new motor to fund your project...think of it as half way to a supercharger?

 

Myself and another member local are still dialing in L92 set ups, both are top ten fastest NA trucks and the only non-OE parts I have are the springs,cam, Pushrods...pretty sure the rest was from GM

 

is that article on line Brad? found some online articles in hotrod about L92 heads but they were the old ones. Are you saying they expected big to be lazy and got the oppsite??

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http://www.ls1tech.c...port-heads.html

 

http://www.afdracing...lsx%20heads.doc

 

the second document is the winner :)

I'll post it bc its prett good reading, with a side of math

The LS Evolution

Ingenuity or Idiocracy?

I wasn't put on this planet to be the “Glenn Beck” of cylinder heads but at times I am told my thoughts are as controversial if not more then Beck's. The LS platform itself is controversial in nature. It has upset many men that have tried to improve upon its design, a humbling creature for sure. I find myself daily dealing with the same phone calls...over and over again. After a few years of answering the same questions ad nauseum I figured it was time to put the pen to the paper (or the keyboard to the screen).

 

 

 

A little about me:

 

.

 

I run a small white label induction shop. Most of my time is spent doing port mastering for engine builders and cylinder head shops. The rest of it is spent dealing with other induction issues. I am fairly proficient in all modern domestic and import engines. Never heard of me? Well...then I am doing my job correctly! 95% of my time is spent supplying product and design information to other cylinder head shops, engine builders and racers. I generally don't deal directly with the public. Why would I take the time to write this? It certainly isn't because I have a bunch of free time! I feel that educating the end user only benefits everyone, which makes this industry stronger as people make better decisions on how they spend their hard earned dollars.

 

 

The questions myths/misconceptions I deal with.

 

 

1. Square port LS heads are slow and sluggish.

 

2. Big velocity / Low lift flow builds big TQ. (Cathedral ports are for velocity)

 

3. Factory LS heads are too thin for boost

 

4. The lower the valve angle, the more power

 

5. Re-engineering the General

 

 

 

1. Square Port LS heads are slow and sluggish.

 

 

Most people hate change. When something changes in their life most people react by identifying what has changed. When the GEN 3 engine was released everyone looked at the intake port and commented how SMALL it was. At that time most people instead of looking how tall the port was immediately commented that the small port would never run and the LS engine was a bad design.

 

 

If we took the time to measure the port we would find that the average width is 1”. That is skinny compared to its SBC predecessor, but what it lacks in width it more than makes up in height. An average cathedral port head measures 2.750” tall dwarfing even its big uncle (Mr. BBC) in height and giving as an average cross sectional area at the intake flange of 2.625”sq. In comparison your average out of box aftermarket 200 cc SBC head will average 2.3”sq. at the flange with the OEM port being even smaller. Simple math tells us that when used on a 346 cubic inch engine the General learned that big ports are a good thing a long time ago. From appearance though the cathedral port head still “looks” small so many never think to measure it and call the mental picture of small good enough.

 

 

 

When you look at an LS-3 or LS-7 head it doesn't take an optical comparator to tell it is one big fat port! To the untrained eye many comment that the head is TWICE as big as its cathedral port parent. Before we judge another book by its cover maybe we better measure it before we open our mouth. Average port opening on a LS3 (L92) head is 1.250 “ wide X 2.475” high. It also carries a fatter corner radius (about .150”sq). That gives us 2.944”sq. at the intake flange. What looks like twice as big turns out to only be about 12% larger? That is one fact we can't argue: the square port heads are only marginally bigger at the intake flange. What about that BIG HONKIN’ INTAKE VALVE! 2.165” in Diameter. The discharge coefficient and velocity through the port must be so slow raw gas drips out the exhaust pipe if you let this monster idle!

 

 

Au contraire mon frere

 

 

Let’s come back to our friend MATH again. We will be working with him through the rest of the document so be nice to him and he will be nice to you. I promise we will keep it at a grade school level though. Before we get there we need to agree on a few things.

 

 

Everyone's flow bench is different (or so the aftermarket wants you to believe). So we need to agree on some flow numbers for this experiment.

 

 

1. Average ported LS6 heads (or copies) w/ a 2.055 valve (Most I see carry a 91% throat and flow around 320 cfm peak).

 

2. Average ported LS3 heads (or copies) w/ a 2.165 valve (Most carry the same 91% throat and flow around 365 cfm peak).

 

 

It stands to reason if we can figure out the area of the throat and compare it to the amount of airflow we can get a quick down and dirty idea of which cylinder head is “faster” in airspeed.

 

 

LS6 head to start.

 

2.055 * .91 = 1.870 throat diameter

 

 

A simple formula for finding the area of a circle is (diameter x diameter x .7854)

 

So, 1.870 x 1.870 x .7854 = 2.746 “sq. of throat area.

 

 

Then 320 cfm/2.746 “sq. = 116.53 cfm/sq” of throat area.

 

 

Now I am not going to bore you with the math the whole way through this, so get your calculator and see if you find the same results as I do!

 

 

LS3 (big fat and slow...right?)

 

 

365 cfm for every 3.046”sq of area, or more simply, there is 119.83 cfm/sq” of throat area. Much slower....WAIT! HOLD ON. More cfm / sq” = higher velocity. If we move more air through the same size hole the only way we can do it is by moving it FASTER!

 

 

So much for that big ugly port being slow. Now what does all this mean? And why are people lying to me? Read on:

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Big velocity / Low lift flow builds big TQ. (Cathedral ports are for velocity)

 

 

(or...Brawndo has what plants crave...electrolytes)

 

 

Mass marketing's purpose is simple: Scare the consumer into spending money. Turn on your TV and think about what someone is trying to sell you. “You need to get rid of your earth killing incandescent light bulbs and purchase compact fluorescent bulbs (that contain mercury) as they are safer and conserve electricity”. Think about that for a moment.

 

 

This is where you are going to think that I am going to start sounding like Mr. Beck. Honestly... I don't howl at the moon... I don't attend tea parties nor believe in conspiracy theories. But facts are facts. Marketing has won over truth for many years. Who invented the radio? Marconi? Think again! Mass marketing even made its way into your history book in school! I don't honestly believe all marketing is bad. But let’s remember what the purpose of marketing is. The people doing the marketing want to get the pictures of the dead Presidents out of your wallet. A white lie here or there won't hurt anyone right ?

 

 

At the current point in time most of the aftermarket cylinder head companies have large investments in the castings that are on there shelves. Core box cost, foundry time, etc. etc. Big bad GM comes by and throws a bucket of water on the fire with the square port head. What to do? Remember... a little white lie can't hurt anyone right?

 

 

It looks BIG.. Let’s tell them it is TOO BIG to make TQ. It will be some big fat lethargic heap. The real small cathedral port head will make BIG TQ. Small ports and smaller headers MAKE BIG TQ! Yeah, RIGHT! If we keep this up Bernoulli is going to climb out of his grave.

 

 

Let’s take a look back and try to think like a GM engineer.. The cathedral port head was designed with many goals in mind. Again I am going to keep this stupid simple (it is a bit more complex in real life...but not much more). Let’s look at only 3 of the goals. 1. It needs to go like Hell. 2. It needs to be in a nice small package. 3. The valve train must be stable.

 

 

Again...the simple approach.

 

 

- It must go like hell (Read... big ports almost 2.7”sq to be exact!)

 

- It needs to be a nice small packages (Read... The motor must be tinny!)

 

- Stable valve train (Read.... everything must be as tight as possible)

 

 

Well I don't know about you, but if I needed to build a small motor but I needed big ports I would try to use every square inch of room available the best I could. But we still need a big port and we don't want push rods and rockers all over the place. So we need to stand the rockers up and keep the manifold as tight to the center-line of the engine as possible. The best solution is to go tall! Nice tight narrow intake ports allow us to keep the push rods perpendicular to the camshaft but we get to keep our nice big port!

 

 

But what happens when the port isn't big enough? Why wouldn't it be big enough? 3 words... Corvettes and Pickup Trucks. GM's flagship car the Corvette must run really well. GM's number one seller, the trucks must also run well. New casting technologies allowed GM to produce a new style of cylinder head at a price point like no other. Less than $150 cost per head! This allowed more cost to be applied in other places (read offset rockers and additional vehicle engineering) The L92/L76/LS3 cylinder head was born.

 

 

If we compare the original LQ series 6.0l truck to the new L92 / L94 (square port) engine we see TQ output is up roughly 12% yet the new engine is only 3% larger? Obviously the square port head does a pretty good job of making power in short order! Remember our friend MATH?

 

 

 

You will also get sold on “hour glass” ports. These are basically cylinder heads with a point of restriction somewhere in the middle of the port to increase velocity. Many want you to believe that high port velocity is where torque production comes from. Instead of using math and making this one complicated... lets use some stupid simple theory.

 

 

If we want to make more torque we need to find a way to apply more pressure to the piston so it can apply more pressure to the connecting rod and finally the crankshaft. What applies the pressure to the piston anyway? The answer is simple...HEAT! Let’s turn our air/fuel mixture into something we can see a little bit better... say... Sand.

 

 

The more sand you put into a jug... the faster.... the more heat you will make.

 

 

Would you rather use a funnel or an hour glass?

 

 

3. Factory LS heads are too thin for boost.

 

<BR style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear=all>

 

I think I have heard it all now. Next they will be selling fire insurance for underwear.

 

The picture above is of a very early L92 prototype. It is one of the thinnest of the L92 castings I have measured at .470” thick. Is .470” thick enough? Well in short, Yes! Assuming you aren't going outlaw 10.5” racing the .470” deck is more than adequate. A good way to think about it is comparing the LS engine to a small block ford (A small block Ford??? He is crazy!). If you have yet to figure out the LSx engine and SBF have the same bolt pattern I am here to confirm that for you. The point of this experiment is to stop the BS of the L92 heads having a deck that is less than .300” thick. The aftermarket guys must use a different measuring device for sure to come up with that kind of gibberish!

 

 

So what is the secret to getting a 4 bolt cylinder head to seal correctly? For the average boosted engine the solution is simple. But it is a secret so I guess we keep it that way.

 

 

What fun would it be keeping it a secret? You really are dying to know anyway. The secret is stupid simple. Surface finish. correct gaskets and a good tune! THAT’S ALL THERE IS TO IT!

 

 

A 20 finish on the block and cylinder head, a good set of MLS gaskets, a good tune and you are set! I generally don't recommend tuners by name. One thing I will say is that if the tuner will fly to your house and tune your car for $50.00 he is not your guy! A bunch of great tuners exist and you will more than likely have to wait in line and pay for their service. At the end of the day though they are worth their weight in gold!

 

 

 

4. The lower the valve angle...the MORE power (really..it should read the MORE problems)

 

 

It wasn't long after people started modifying cylinder heads that they started moving valves around. Luckily today most people understand why and when you want to alter valve placement or angle. I guess a few exist that still don't get it though. We need to apply a little theory and math together to get a good idea of why we may or may not want to adjust the valve angle. A few thoughts first:

 

 

- Some believe magic happens when you reach a certain valve angle (normally 18 degrees)

 

- In reality the engine does not know what angle the valve is on

 

- the relationship of the intake port entrance to the valve angle is what produces more power (What we refer to as approach angle)

 

- Engines with valve angles steeper than 20 degrees gain bore clearance by standing the valve up. Obviously this does not affect the LSx engine with its factory 15 degree valve angle.

 

 

If we want to move air effectively into an engine common sense would tell us that wewant to make the path as straight as possible. Due to valve train and engine packaging we only can move so much in either direction. Since the LS head carries a shallow 15 degree valve angle the intake and exhaust valves stay far away from the engine bore when opening even at valve lifts over 1”. The only benefit of moving the valve angle any shallower would be to make the combustion chamber smaller. In reality the 15 degree chamber can support volumes as small as 45 cc's. So what other benefit do we gain by making the valve angle shallower? The answer may be shocking to some. From here on out, unless we can raise the intake port great amounts to offset moving the valve angle, we only make things worse with shallower angles. As we stand the valve up without raising the intake port entrance we are making the turn over the short side steeper and steeper increasing the energy it takes to turn the charge into the combustion chamber.

 

 

Now the bad part. We have moved our intake valve to something less than 15 degrees without raising our intake port entrance. It has given us no benefit as the intake valve is already far away from the bore wall when opening and we don't really have a use for a combustion chamber smaller then 45cc's. But by moving that valve we have blessed ourselves with a slew of other problems. What problems you ask?

 

 

- None of the current altered valve location castings alter the width or height of the casting. This is understandable as the casting needs to be a direct bolt on. Since the valve package has been relocated the compound angle of the rocker packages has been severely compromised. No chance of running a larger push rod unless you want to grind into the valve cover rail or intake port. More lateral scrub as we can't move the rocker high enough...etcc.

 

- The additional lateral load on the valve directly affects valve guide life

 

- The solution for some is to run a stud mounted rocker system to help the guide life problem. This does help the guide life a small percentage but at a huge cost to valve train stability.

 

- In a race situation a custom piston will be required.

 

 

OK... enough with the negatives. All this for nothing! We gain nothing with the altered valve location! Let’s keep our rigid factory rocker and valve location!

 

 

5. Re-engineering the General

 

 

Obviously anything good can be made better.... Right? Well some obstacles certainly exist with the factory LS square ports (and are common among all factory LS heads). Most can be solved cheaply enough that it is not an issue. The one big issue that only affects the hardest core racers is the lack of valve spring pocket diameter. The factory configuration does not allow a spring diameter greater than 1.400” without major modification. How in the world could GM go through all of this engineering and miss something so simple?

 

The answer is simple....THEY DIDN'T! Plans have been in motion for many years on a performance version of the factory square port heads. Finally today demand is high enough for GM to manufacture its “LSX” line of street heads with more material in all the right places plus support for valve spring diameters up to 1.650”! All this with a cost that rivals most of the aftermarket companies with no worn valve guides or lost promises to boot!

 

 

At the end of the day it is obvious that the good people of GM have done their homework!

 

 

 

Comments or Thoughts? Shoot me an email!

 

 

Dennis Wheet Jr.

 

AFD racing

 

[email protected]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by detjoe (see edit history)
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Wow Joe, thats a bunch of info. Looking forward to taking it all in tonight when i'm not on my 15 minute lunch. This post is going a very cool direction, Zach i hope you don't mind all this stuff going on in your post, other wise we can take it else were if we are off your topic.

 

Yeah Joe its a new article and i never looked online but if it isn't online, I'll see if i can get my scanner to work and i could always email you the files.

 

And yes, they thought big was lazy at low rpm speeds and would lose torque until very high up. I would have placed money on this as well. They found out the HUGE l92 heads produced the most average torque, very good torque peak and didn't raise the peak any higher then the other heads tested. They tested them kinda just to see what would happen....and they ended up being one of the best heads in the test. So there i am arguing with myself about square port heads.

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Great discussion! I debated on doing the big old 92's or a traditional cathedral port. I made my choice on the availability of intakes / valves / springs / proven cams etc. at the time. The base information just wasn't available at the time.

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Great discussion! I debated on doing the big old 92's or a traditional cathedral port. I made my choice on the availability of intakes / valves / springs / proven cams etc. at the time. The base information just wasn't available at the time.

exactly, there was no info out...and then it started to be 'bad' info. Then there were not that many after market parts to pick from...I initally understand why guys did not go this direction(I remember cam picking and PTV clearence for one)

 

if you have time read the article I quoted...has some math to help you better understand why GM went in the direction they did with the square port and all the other geometry that goes into head design.

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Hell no guys, I don't mind all the discussion at all. As far as my goals and budget go here it is....I wan't to keep things as simple as possible and not have to do anything crazy or custom that doesnt HAVE to be done...such as change all the accessories and having to modify parts to make things work. Yes I want good gains but I'm not looking for any insane numbers, just decent gains. As far as mods already done to the truck and future plans I dont want to change out much either, especially my TC, it will be staying in for good. Future plans for the truck, AFTER its paid off!! (BRIAN) Are to install a P1SC procharger, but that will be waaaay down the road. I would really like to be able to step up to the bigger throttle body, which is why i considered keeping the ly6 truck intake and not swapping to a car style because i dont want to have to change that much crap nor do i want to spend out the ass for a FAST intake, it just doesnt fit my budget at all. Im trying to keep things as simple and cheap as i possibly can and still not skimp out on parts, such as the heads, springs, rods (would like to replace my lifters if the heads are going to be off anyway). So basically what I'm getting at is i want to go with a simple head/intake and cam swap, that doesnt require a lot of custom modifications that will also yield good gains. I would like to switch over to the l92 style heads if possible but dont want to shoot myself in the foot in the upper rpm range if the stock intake manifold is going to hold me back THAT much. IF i buy the l92 style heads im going to build them up before installing them for sure with springs rods and what not, im not going to just throw them on the truck and pray they hold up to a cam swap. Also, what will I have to consider differently in my cam selection with the cathedral heads vs the l92 heads? Im really learning a lot here guys, previous to this i knew very very little about this type of stuff. By far the most helpful thread ive ever started.

 

Zach

Edited by zachm89 (see edit history)
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