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TurbochargedBerserker

STS vs. Radix vs. ATI vs. ...

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I got tired of trying to maintain two seperate threads, so here's a link to the thread I'll be updating:

 

http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=356429

 

 

There are a lot of questions about STS vs. Radix, Radix vs. ATI, STS vs. Front mount turbo, etc., so this thread is a place to store all that info so we don't have to keep retyping it every time someone considers FI for their truck. I'll start out with my answers to these questions, which reflect my experiences and research (your mileage may vary so speak up), this is a sticky so we all have a common thread to that people can read at their leisure and so we can report new info.

 

Let me be the first in this thread to say that the best option for you depends on your goals, desires, targets, money, etc. There is no one-size-fits-all FI solution and there never will be because each method brings its own inherent strengths and weaknesses to the table. Almost ANY FI kit offers the potential of going stupid fast.

 

Here are my pros/cons for each system I thought of (some of this may be out of date, so PM me with details if you see something and I will correct my list):

 

STS : Squires Turbo Systems : Rear mount turbos

Strengths:

1. power potential -- turbos in general have more potential to make big horsepower, most of the time exceeding the engines capability to make power

2. Well designed kit (and being refined all the time)

3. Kit price is inexpensive, but the kit itself is incomplete if you want to make big power

4. No parasitic drag (although an argument has been made that the increased exhaust pressure effects the engine's efficiency)

5. Variable boost -- at the flip of a switch (with an upgrade to the basic kit), you can have 'everyday' boost and 'race' boost

6. Capability to grow with you as your goals grow

7. Easily modded

8. Doesn't require $1000 in exhaust parts to make max power

9. 1 year warranty

10. STELLAR customer service

11. multiple intercooler options including air to air, meth/alky/water injection

 

Weaknesses:

1. kit requires welding / minor fabrication

2. kit needs more parts to make big power (see #3 above), but most are available from STS as options (injectors, tune, fuel pump, cooling method)

3. no boost until the turbo spools up (I'm not going to talk about lag here, as lag is generally misunderstood / or assumed to be the same thing as a turbocharged 4 cylinder's lag).

 

 

Radix Magnacharger - Roots-hybrid supercharger

Strengths:

1. Instant torque -- any time, all the time

2. Intercooled

3. Very complete kit - intercooler, all necessary parts, pump included on 03 models

4. 'Easy' install -- no welding or fabrication, most people with basic wrenching skills can do this

5. Nice long warranty as long as you use the superchips tune -- 3 Year 36K mile Drivetrain warranty is additional cost ($200) and the install must be done by an ASE certified mechanic

6. Nice community support (Hey Brian!)

7. Someone weigh in here on customer support, but my feeling from talking to others is that it is STELLAR (comments from an owner: customer support is great, calls returned, you get to talk to technical people in the USA)

8. Great track record

9. Really shines at 7psi in terms of abidactic efficiency compared to similar style blowers (i.e. non-cent blowers)

 

Weakenesses:

1. Expense of the 'basic kit', which is probably the most complete FI

2. Ultimate power potential is limited, but limited to ~500hp which is enough for 95% of the world

3. Changing boost is more difficult than with turbos (pulley change)

4. Belt slippage (although maybe not for 3.1" pulleys) -- Guys with Radix's please let me know if you have slippage issues - if not, let's get this one out of here

5. Needs full exhaust for maximum potential

6. Parasitic loss

 

Whipple - Twin Screw Supercharger

 

**note: these are all based on the Lysholm kits and all is subject to change with the new in house compressor**

 

Strengths:

1. Very high abidactic efficiency -- more than the radix according to the source (WHIPPLE...), but it is not really an apples to apples comparison. A/E is affected by ambient temp, and is pretty tightly coupled to the compressor variables -- so until we see data from a controlled test of similar boost levels in the same ambient conditions)

2. Complete kit

3. Instant torque from 1500 rpm up

4. In the upper rpms, this is probably more efficient than a radix

5. at ~15psi the abidactic efficiency is much better than the radix at the same boost (whereas 7psi vs 7psi the A/E favors the radix)

 

Weaknesses:

1. No intercooler

2. ECM is a piggy back system

3. Only comes with two add on injectors

4. Customer service leaves a lot on the table

5. No resale value -- Whipple requires s/cs to be evaluated and updated in order to flash the computer... I was told this always leads to at least $1500 in charges by a whipple employee

6. Parasitic loss

7. belt slippage

8. Needs full exhaust for maximum potential

9. pulley change to change boost

 

ATI - Procharger - Centrifugal Supercharger (most of this is old-- from my 5.0 days)

Strengths:

1. Higher power potential than Radix or Whipple, less than turbo

2. Great track record

3. Almost instant torque

4. Easy install

5. In my 5.0 days, customer service wasn't too hot

6. I've been told the cost of these has come way down to around $4k -- that's a good price :)

 

Weaknesses:

1. Kit needs more parts for maximum potential (injectors, intercooler -- although a FMIC is available from ATI as an option)

2. FMIC is not super efficient

3. Belt slippage requires special mounting brackets to turn up the boost

4. pulley change to change boost

5. Install is easy, but very involved.

6. Peak power only at shift point (these require impellor tip speed to make boost)

7. high parasitic loss

 

Vortech - Centrifugal Supercharger (5.0 days again)

Stregnths:

1. Same as ATI

2. Vortech has been around forever... Chances are if there is some problem with a centrifugal s/c, vortech not only has a solution, but invented the problem :devil:

3. Available air-to-water intercooler

4. LOTS of available options

5. Complete kit

6. Good support in general, but not much for GM trucks

 

Weaknesses:

1. Cost of the kit

2. Cost of maintenance

3. Peak power only at shift point (these require impellor tip speed to make boost)

4. high parasitic loss

5. belt slippage issues as boost increases

 

Detroit speedworks, PTK, CM, LM -- Front mount turbo kits

Strengths:

1. Most power potential of any FI option discussed here

2. The "in thing" in go fast

3. Since I am lumping several kits in here, I can't address the individual things of each kit, but generally speaking, these kits are complete, and ready to go

 

Weaknesses:

1. Underhood temps skyrocket

2. Need heat reducing steps in addition to FMICs

3. Since I am lumping several kits in here, I can't address the individual things of each kit, but generally speaking, may require extensive fabrication, loss of A/C, etc.

4. Expense of the kit, plus install

 

I'd love it if you guys with front mount kits would either post up or send me the strengths/weakenesses and I'll edit them in for your particular kit.

 

I'll let someone else address n2o since I've never used it or researched it.

 

Other kits coming on the horizon: W2W kit (I think -- Kurt?), and the Rotrex-based s/c also from W2W Maybe we can get Kurt to drop in and give us the scoop on these kits.

 

Not reviewed: the alternator-drive s/c (wynjammer??) if anyone has some real info, please post up.

 

Here's a linky to the track times thread for comparison of 1/4 mile times of SSS's with these mods.

Edited by TurbochargedBerserker

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Nice I like what you did there Erik, as far as n20 goes....

 

The good:

1. Most power per dollar (Nothing even comes close)

2. Instant tire shredding torque

3. Easy install

4. Tuning is almost not even required for a basic kit

5. Does not clutter under hood appearance

6. No limitation on the power potential other then what the drivetrain can handle.

7. New controller technoligy allows full progressive control in every gear. Takes away the punishment of just a hard all at once hit.

8. Very safe if set up correctly and used in the right hands

9. Power level adjustments are as easy as a jet change

10. There is no lack of nitrous knowledge available to the people, it has been used for quite some time

 

The bad and the ugly

1. Bottle refills are expensive over time

2. Power is not always there, only when the bottle is full and has good pressure(950-1050)

3. Power level adjustments are as easy as a jet change...too easy to get greedy with power levels.

4. Dangerous in the wrong hands(look to number 3) Use and install.

5. Lean backfires that take out the top half of the motor. Usually caused by a poor install, wrong length of line from the n20 noid to the nozzle....

6. Also the occasional sticking noid. This can cause a melt down when the nitrous noid sticks open. Very rare and is usually a installation problem or a faulty noid.

Edited by hellbents10

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Also, I've been asked if we can add:

 

1. what kind of boost levels have been *observed* on stock LQ9

2. what RPM usable boost is seen on stock LQ9

3. what convertor is typically run on stock LQ9

 

I can answer for the STS, so if some of you Radix / ATI / Vortech guys can post up these things as well, it would be a help.

 

On stock cubes, I saw up to 12 psi, but 10psi was about the max before diminished returns kicked in. With 10:1 compression, I wouldn't think much more than 12 is going to work for very long. Also note: I was using an Alky Controls progressive Methanol injection controller to get to these levels. DO NOT TRY THIS FOR COMPLETELY NON-INTERCOOLED SYSTEMS.

 

With a GT67 on stock cubes I saw full boost from 3000rpm until I lifted my foot.

 

I'd recommend a 2600-3000rpm stall. I used both a stock converter and a 2600. I loved the 2600, it made the truck seem like it had instant boost and I could brake spool to 6psi.

 

Thanks for posting up TJ, I was hoping you'd weigh in with the n2o info :)

Edited by TurbochargedBerserker

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It seems as though a 2800 vigilanti works very well on the Radix trucks. Also the trailblazer converter will have differnet flash rpm's for every different power level. This holds true for most converters. Not so much with a Vigilanti though. We have seen Radix trucks with the Radix supplied tune with a 3.3" pulley flash at about 2950. With tuning and moretiming in the bottom you can expect to see as much as 3100-3200. With a smaller pulley like a 2.9" or 3" we have seen them flash in the 3300-3400 range with a little tuning.

May it be noted that the flash speed will seem to be higher while waching the logs. This is mostly due to tire spin. :devil: Seems we run into that with a good tune and converter on the radix trucks lol.

 

Nitrous will greatly increase the stall speed on a converter. This is where anti ballon plates and such come in. With such a crazy torque spike the stall speed can increase by 200-2000 rpm or more. I have seen a conveter flash about 3400 on motor alone then turn into a 5200 stall on a 170 shot. So pick your n20 converter accordingly

 

As far as a ATI, Vortech or any centrifical supercharged truck goes a little looser converter should be considerd as boost does not come on as quickly as a Radix or turbo. The looser converter will help these vehicles to get out of there lazy range where no boost is being made. Remeber it will make less power down here then w/o the blower. It takes some hp just to spin the blower when it is not making boost. Hence the lazy feeling w/o the right converter.

 

All this should be considered when making a fored induction/n20 choice. As a tighter converter would be the choice on the street for drivability and fuel econimy....Not to metion the tighter stall will equall lower trans temps.

 

This is gonna be a great thread Erik!

Edited by hellbents10

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Wow! this is great info. I've been thinking about a Radix on mine, and want all the info I can get. After reading just the first post I think I'll go with the Radix. I'm not going to build a race truck, just a nice fast street truck that sees occasional track duty for fun. Looking forward to hearing input on this one.

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The W2W turbo and SC kits will be on Power tour for all to see. We think the SC will be a good cost effective option for speeding up our trucks. Look for my red SS Silverado (turbo) or the Black shortcab shortbox SS Silverado (5.3 SC) on Power tour.

 

 

Kurt

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The W2W turbo and SC kits will be on Power tour for all to see. We think the SC will be a good cost effective option for speeding up our trucks. Look for my red SS Silverado (turbo) or the Black shortcab shortbox SS Silverado (5.3 SC) on Power tour.

 

 

Kurt

 

 

 

i'll be looking for it in the hot rod magazine. i hope to stop back out again someday to check out some numbers on that new supercharger kit. i'm trying to find some uses for them. we're hoping to try one on a gen III sbc truck or an s10. that supercharger is damn cool. once you get some more info on that we should add that to the list. :thumbs:

 

i'm not sure where would be cooler to work. W2W or the playboy mansion. :cool:

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Great thread guys love it good info also :thumbs: best thread i have been in as far as question and answer :thumbs:

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Hey, I know this thread is for FI but how does the 408 measure up against the FI systems? What are the Pro's and Con's of going to the 408 vs. a FI system? I know this is a vague question, but I am asking out of ignorance. Thanks

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in simple form, your average 408 build is going to run a high 12 in the quarter naturally asperated. a supercharged 364 with equall mods except cubes will run roughly the same time. this obviously isn't always the case, but i'd use this for the general rule.

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in simple form, your average 408 build is going to run a high 12 in the quarter naturally asperated. a supercharged 364 with equall mods except cubes will run roughly the same time. this obviously isn't always the case, but i'd use this for the general rule.

 

It's interesting if it's true that adding just 44 cubes yields the same results as a blower on a 364, all other things supposedly equal.

 

The "equal mods" concept may be tricky. If you're talking external bolt-ons on an internally stock 6.0 with a S/C I would agree. If you consider that the average 408 build is getting custom pistons, an optimal cam and ported heads I am not so sure. Put the right combo of these on the F/I 364, crank up the boost and add what we now know about the need for more fuel, and I think the blown 6.0 should produce more HP, torque and area under the curve than the "average" N/A 408 buildup. Just my humble opinion. What do you guys think?

 

I guess track times tell the tale. :driving:

Edited by SSLink

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